Problem With Large Long Term Zoos

[Mulluane]

Ok, I need some advice.

Large City Zoo
Challenge mode
No cheats
Standard 30k starting funds

I have no problem getting started. I know to setup a foodcourt ect. near entrance with 2 community exhibits on either side. I can setup 4 community exhibits by year 2, with 5 stars and have the money rolling in.

The problem comes later, around year 5 and 6. As the zoo grows I have the same 120 people I had in year 2 but now they have to pay for an increasing number of exhibits, animals, zookeepers and so on. Meanwhile the original animals are dying of old age or needing fresh mates. I regularly go through and clear out over populated exhibits to keep upkeep down.

No matter how slowly and carefully I build and grow my zoo, without fail by year 5 and 6 I'm struggling to break even and maintain what I have, forget expanding my zoo. By this point I have 8 or 9 large exhibits with 2 to 3 species in each with 2 large and 3 small food/entertainment courts.

Now I'm really bad at math, but I suspect that there is a limit to how long a visitor will stay and how much money he/she will spend before leaving so I'm hitting roadblock of inflow verses outflow. Only so much money can come in but there is no limit to the amount of money going out. Just a guess, like I said, I am REALLY bad at math.

Any ideas? Suggestions? Advice on a good wig maker since I have no hair left?

[csleesburg]

Howdy, Mulluane, nice to meet you! I don't think I've seen you in Introductions yet? (If I have, I'm sorry for forgetting :blush )

Well, I find the absolute best thing is the Money Cheat topic here. It has helped a lot of us get past tought spots.

But, if you're in a long-term zoo, I would ask 1) do you have restaurants 2) do you have amusements 3) do you have 'wanted' animals like the Panda or the Komodo dragon or the penguins (they're real popular) 4) do you have lots of tour objects/scenery around? If you're short of money, you can delete foliage from the zoo itself (like extra maple trees or rocks). If you don't have it, put in a combo exhibit at the BACK of the zoo, where it'll attract more people. Do you have a compost heap? And, if so, do you remember to empty it (extra money there). If you have balloons from endangered babies, you can sell those. You can sell any endangered babies STATUES you get, too. I find people like combined exhibits a lot, so try combining some that are similar (like crocs/beavers/flamingos/hipps) or (ALL the gazelles/camels/giraffes/ostriches/zebra/Giant Sable antelope).

See if any of that works. :whistle

OH - and reduce your admission price.

[Mulluane]

Far from new, just don't post alot.

I have all and have done all of the things you mentioned and no offense but I refuse to use the money cheat, besides, that won't solve the problem. I have NO problem getting the zoo going with more then enough money coming in to expand for awhile, but once the zoo gets to a certain size/age the balance begins to equal out.

The problem as I see it is that same 120 people who were paying for the upkeep and maintainence of 1 large food court, 2 small ones and 4 large community exhibits (at that point I have more money then I know what to do with) are not spending enough money to maintain 9 large exhibits, 2 large and 3 small food/entertainment courts and allow me to show a decent profit.

Now keeping in mind my somewhat limited mathmatical skills. You have 120 people who come into your zoo with about 5 to 6 hundred dollors, now if you keep them happy, and I do, they will withdraw more from one of the many ATMs you have scattered around. So lets say for the sake of arguement a happy guest will spend 1000 dollors during their stay. No matter how big or small your zoo is, you only have 120 people spending their 1000 bucks at a time, period. Now adjusting admissions won't affect this unless they are UNHAPPY, if you have alot of folks leaving, you will have alot coming back in and paying admission. This is not something you want to happen, they need to be happy, stay awhile, run out of money, withdraw more money from atm, and spend it before leaving. If you do it right your admission numbers per month will be low so raising or lowering admissions makes little difference.

The increase in difficulty can be traced, I believe, to the fact that you have to buy alot more animals then you did prior to ES. Now it could be that I'm not utilizing the skytrams and jeep tours effectively. They are the only new sources of income. I've tried it both ways and to be honest I seem to have a much better cashflow without them.

[alloy61]

I don't usually use jeeps or sky trams either, usually because they're very expensive to construct and they cause my computer to slow down incredibly.

As far as I can tell, the guests seem to recycle themselves a bit, so you do get new customers with money, the accounts page shows how much you get from guest admissions every year.

Have you tried using some of the compost centres? I usually create a small exhibit at the back witha round five compost centres and lock a workman in there (i.e. don't put a gate on the fence).

A lot of the money comes from donations too, so if you have the rarer animals and babies you will get more donations. I don't know if you've read the topic on a self sustaining zoo either - it's here.
This might help stop you from spending too much on animals.

Another alternative is to lower your staff numbers and help maintain the exhibits yourself, if you have 1 keeper for every 3 average sized exhibits it may help as long as they're close to eachother (again, sealing them off from the rest of the zoo and only having gates between enclosures stops them from wandering away and sitting on a bench at the other end of the zoo...)

Hope this helps...

[Mulluane]

Everything helps thanks. I never thought of using more then one compost. That's something I get as soon as it becomes available but I've never gotten more then one, I'll have to try that.

The zookeeper trick is one I use. Lock him/her in the exhibit and give them a bench. It works really well.

Here is what I start with. Large food and entertainment court right at front entrance. It has everything, fountains, kiosks (sp?), statues resturants, playground items, gift shops and carts, (they will buy from both even if a gift shop is right there), bathrooms, all as they become available.

First exhibit has Musk Ox, Caribou and Penguins. Real crowd pleaser. I get 1 male and 2 females of each type, wait until both females are pregnant and immediately replace the male. This gives me a large breeding pool for awhile, new male can now not only breed with original females but with any female offspring from that first mating. (Also helps toward achieving both the the endangered release award and normal conservation one because you are quickly releasing a nice healthy male or 3 in every exhibit you set up.)

Second exhibit, on other side of entrance  is either desert with camels and onyx or savanna with gazelles, zebra, sables. Third exhibit is just below the entrance/food court with grizzly bears, wolverines and wolves, another big crowd pleaser. 4th and 5th exhibits are elephants with ostriches and one with snow leopards, both very popular.

At this point I'm still showing a fairly good profit and its time to clear out any overpopulation problems in the other exhibits so my upkeep costs are kept in check so I go looking for mated pairs, keep 2 pairs and release the rest, including any babies since releasing mom can create a problem. Now this works great but being one of Murphy's faithful followers and victims, everytime I do this I start losing members of my selected mating pairs to old age and have to buy new ones, never fails. (Note, this doesn't work with wolves, bears and wolverines although the extra carcass containers you get if you try are a nice source of income.)

Now I start putting in a few more exhibits. Last go round I did desert first so I added another savannah with black rhino, african dog and giraffe plus I put a trio of sables in with my elephants and ostriches. Then I added a scrub exhibit, divided in half, with komodo dragon on one side and asian elephant, tortoises on other. Last exhibit I did was bengal tigers. I put in another large food/entertaiment court by these.  (I also had 3 small themed ones placed in strategic places.)

At this point my money flow starts to equal out. I have enough coming in to maintain what I have but I'm no longer making enough to create new exhibits. Note that with the exception of my snow cats, they are all community exhibits with 1, maybe 2 if they are typically dirty animals, kookeepers locked in and doing a bang up job. I have at the most 3 maintainence workers and 3 instructors (to increase donations). As near as I can tell, and I could be wrong, compost buildings don't need workers. I've watched them empty themselves just to be sure. I always tuck them away in a corner early on without even a road going to them, if I get to build up that part of the zoo, I'll fence it in completely so guests aren't offended. I still get a healthy 5 to 10k recycling bonus each month so I assume they are working just fine.

This is the basic layout IF I ever get it to work: (PP = double path, FC= small themed food court. Usually contains one food, one drink, one dessert cart, 2 tables, 2 trash cans, one music rock, one statue, one ATM, one gift cart and a light post.)

                                                       
Savannah-pp-Desert-pp-Entrance-Foodcourt-Tundra
FC-pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp-FC
FC-pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp-FC
Scrub-pp-Savannah-pp-Boreal-pp-Alpine
ppppppppppppppp-FC-pppppppppppppppppppppp
ppppppppppppppp-FC-pppppppppppppppppppppp
Jungle-pp-Jungle-pp-Temperate-pp-Wetlands
FC-ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp-FC
FC-ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp-FC
Jungle-pp-Foodcourt-pp-Grassland-pp-Temperate.

Yes its all pretty square and boring but hey, I'm a pretty square and boring person myself

These are very large exhibits, the majority using zoo walls to cut down on fencing costs. Each has an observation area on every side with 2 benches facing the exhibit (so they can rest and watch animals at same time.) a donation box and binoculars, so each exhibit has atleast 3 if not 4 donation boxes per.
         
I'm going to try using multiple composts. With the one I'm using now bringing in 5 to 10k per month I'll be interested to see what multiples do. Other then that anybody have any other ideas?

[alloy61]

Originally posted by alloy61@Jan 21 2006, 10:19 AM
Have you tried using some of the compost centres? I usually create a small exhibit at the back witha round five compost centres and lock a workman in there (i.e. don't put a gate on the fence).

OOPS!! Sorry, I was confusing my ZT's a bit there.  :blush (In ZT1 I kept them in an inaccessible exhibit to prevent guests getting upset by the smell)
I don't use more than 3 compost centres, I rarely need more than 2. The maintenance worker keeps them pretty empty most of the time

[Crookshankz227]

Do you have a bench for the zookeepers in every exhibit ? That helps them work better. Also I suggest you use elevated paths to get your guests "inside" the exhibits. If you have a speedy computer then I suggest you set up 1 sky tram which goes round the zoo.

[Peacenote]

I have actually had this problem, too, and for me the answer was .... sky trams!  I found that donations are where the money's at, as opposed to concessions (except for maybe restaurants).  If you make a route that is immersed in at least one theme - even having it go over themed music rocks, bathrooms, etc. - and have tour objects right at the end of the tour so guests are sure to see something cool right before they get off, it actually doesn't cost that much money to get to a five star tour.  And that really brings in the donations!

The other thing I would suggest is, don't forget to scatter gift carts or gift shops throughout your zoo.  I'm almost 100% certain (I'm kind of tired right at this moment) that I have seen guests carry around two gifts.  And while they will stop and buy a gift while going in, if they run into their favorite animal later they'll buy a gift for that too.  As long as they aren't so close together that one is taking revenue from the other, it can only help!

As far as your theory goes, though, about how long people will stay and how much money they spend, I do think that is true, to a certain extent.  Not just because of what's built into the game as guest behavior, but also because of guest ai flaws and bugs.  Somewhere someone suggested to me to periodically close the zoo and let everyone leave, and then reopen.  Then all new people come in, ready to meet their needs again.  This has really worked for me and helped me financially.  And, most often, when I close the zoo, I find at least 5 or 6 people that won't leave, because they're stuck in a walking loop in a fence curve or something.  The longer you go without ever clearing the zoo out, the more "stuck" people are building up.  All those stuck people aren't spending money, but they can't leave either.  And unless you catch sight of them, you won't even know they're there, because they stay happy (not showing up in the upset guest list) until you pick them up and put them down somewhere else, whereupon they immediately get really upset because all their needs are in the red, and leave the zoo.

Similarly, I often get a problem with my bigger zoos where guests think they are being chased by animals that are still perfectly enclosed.  And sometimes it will be catching, until six or seven guests are ALSO running around screaming "Ahh! Ahh!" along with the stuck guests.  They, too, are not spending money, because they're upset.  Closing the zoo gets rid of them too, at least for a while.

I hope that all makes sense and didn't sound like rambling!!  :blink

[Mulluane]

No not rambling at all

I tried yet again and this time, while I had the money rolling in like crazy with my first 3 exhibits, I built every single exhibit in the zoo. Didn't put animals in them but they got built and included food and enrichment items for the animals I planned to put there. I prepared the areas for my food/entertainment courts but I didn't put in the buildings since I had no animals yet, I just had them ready for later.

This worked to a point. I made it to 7 years buying animals for my exhibits as I went along, before animal upkeep and replacement started to equal income. Now I could forgo the animals that can not have substaining populations like wolves, wolverines, bears, some cats (they tend to kill each other off then the alpha pair dies of old age and must be replaced. ) but that would mean sacrificing some of my favorite animals. I'd also have to get rid of the rabbit breeding animals like foxes and kiolas since trying to keep their numbers down is a headache but having too many gets costly in upkeep. The large animals like elephants and rhinos live a long time but you don't generally set them up as substaining due to room considerations so replacements need to be purchased at some point. And I don't care how many Flamingos you buy, they always die out.

One of the problems I think is animals dying of old age. Now you setup your selfsubstaining exhibit and you are counting on the right genders to be born and find mates. This doesn't always happen, you might get an over abundance of males or females (btw, only the females complain about no mates to breed with so you can easily have an exhibit of unmated males and never know it.) Next thing you know your only mated female has died while you are trying to keep up with, in my case, 14 exhibits, most of which contain 2 or 3 species, and you don't realize all your onyx are dying out without any offspring because there are 12 males and not the first female!.

I'm going to try shutting down and reopening my zoo, its very possible that with as long as it has been running that might help alot and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for that suggestion. I have gift carts scattered around and one gift shop near exit and another at far end of zoo. My sky tram is at 5 stars but it bothers me that the riders don't always get off at the end of the tour, they just keep going which means that as long as they are up in the air, they aren't spending any money. The donations are nice but I'm not convinced yet that they are a good idea. I definately would not build them until you have a zoo mostly complete because anything under 5 stars is a definate waste.

I'm not giving up yet, I want that 20 year zoo with every award but the jeep ones!